What Do You Say When Your Ideas Lose Elections Even in Canada?

"You're ugly!"  (Memo to Joe: The kettle is on line 2.)

Comments

[Joe.My.God.]

...bowing gracefully....

[Robbie]

Personally I found Jews for Hitler somewhat more amusing. It at least had a glint of interest because it's so infused with fanatical crazy. Gay Republicans are ugly is dull, dull, dull. Writers as interesting as Joe should be barred from tossing out gay lefty banalities.

I do enjoy the comments after his post, though. "I'd never date a Republican!" The inherent intolerance involved in a strictly required adherence to one belief system is filled with so much unintentional irony and hypocrisy, I just kinda enjoy watching them wallow in it without a hint of self-awareness. Stupid people are fun. We'll call it the American Idol quotient.

BTW, early warning system. Gay leftbots incoming in 5 . . . 4 . . . 3 . . .

[Dan]

A) Your comeback is a reference to the Canadian elections. A little bit non sequitur, but at least we aren't being reminded of how beautiful your husband is or how big your schlong is.

B) The Canadian election had nothing to do with ideas. It had more to do with a scandal-plagued incumbent party and an opposition party that suddenly decided it was OK to copy all the left-leaning ideas that got them defeated in the last election.

[Malcontent]

Dan: And "Republican equals physically unattractive" is a "sequitur"? Hie thee to a dictionary.

[Dan]

Right next to the entry for 'Gay Republican': See Sense of Humor, lack thereof.

[Malcontent]

You might be a lot of things, Dan, but "funny" isn't one of them. ;-)

[Robbie]

Did Dan arrive on time or what?

[Dan]

Ouch, that stings. Convoluted politically-oriented comebacks are soooo much more funny.

(bowing)

[Jamie]

I'm kinda let down by the fact that in just one week the comments here have gone from intelligent discussion to back-and-forth mudslinging.

And we wonder why we can't accomplish any mutual goals.

[Robbie]

It's because I haven't really been around this week *pats self on back* (Hey, I'm all about granting myself delusional levels of self-importance).

Actually, I've been reading when I've been able, and it seems like there's been an infusion of really, really left-wing commenters out of nowhere. If I were commenting as much as I wanted to, I can't say I'd be very good with them. My patience levels hit lows when someone puts forth one of those terrorists = freedom fighters memes in earnest.

[Malcontent]

I'm always ashamed (thankfully) the few times that I let my arguments and ideas slip into the realm of personal attack, but I don't really feel bad about responding to those who make a habit of it.

It seems like when we have tried lately to engage people in discussing ideas, there is always someone who sees it as entree for ad hominem invective.

All I seem to be hearing from the gay blogosphere these days is that gay men who don't agree with the bulk of the "progressive" agenda are ugly, traitorous or stupid. (Although there is nothing new about those tired, lame trite-isms.) How is one supposed to respond?

As an addendum, I don't see what is such a nonsequitur about my headline. You and Joe share in common with Paul Martin a platform that has at its core a pure, raw hatred of President Bush. It hasn't been winning elections on either side of the border, so rather than thoughtfully engage those with whom you disagree, you call them "ugly." It is sure to further endear you to the hearts of the public.

[Chad]

How is one supposed to respond?

"My dad can kick your dad's butt!" Or maybe the tried and true "I know you are, but what am I?" How 'bout we bust out the "Your gay liberal ass is SOOOO fat..."

It worked in elementary school didn't it?

[Malcontent]

"Rubber and glue," maybe? Because that would work so well in the case of some of the folks making these original observations. (I enjoy how some people just can't see irony when it is staring out at them from these blogs.)

[anthony]

Mal - I'm not sure that I would agree that Martin had a "pure hatred of George Bush". Anti-Americanism in Canada has a long tradition and all parties subscribe to it even the Conservatives. In order to win elections you stand up to the Americans on some level or people won't vote for you. To class Martin in with the left-wing NDP or even former PM Chretien does a disservice to the delicate line he was walking. In Canada the softwood lumber dispute has been headline news for a decade. Do many (or any) Americans even know about this dispute? Or care when they find out about it? But you must talk tough and pick fights with whoever was in the white house from George I to Clinton to George II.

And I agree that the Conservatives won - I may be left wing but I'm not delusional - but like the previous gov't they are a minority which is a qualified success. It's a demand for change while leashing the gov't to the other more left wing parties. People in Canada don't want a Republican country, we don't go to church, we don't feel citizens should be armed, we don't like the death penalty. We are Belgium stuck on top of the US. And unless Harper moves away from socially conservative positions on mo marriage and abortion he may never have a breakthrough in the urban areas, Ontario, Quebec and MAritimes that will allow him to have the kind of majority the last Conservative gov't enjoyed.

[Robbie]

I still think it's a rather interesting phenomena that Bush's allies in the War on Terror almost always win re-election (exception being post 3-11 Spain, which was down to government incompetence in blaming Basque separatists), and yet the most vociferous opponents are going down in flames to conservatives. Canada, Germany, France (Chirac and Villipen are done), etc.

What to make of this trend? How is it Bush, Blair, and Howard survive, and the most out-spoken political figures against the man are all out of power or on their way?

It has to be demoralizing for people who believe Bush is unmitigated evil to watch foreign governments folding and replaced by more Bush friendly administrations. When Venezuela's Chavez becomes the shining foreign anti-Bush figure of your movement because everyone else was thrown out of power, something has gone terribly wrong.

[Jamie]

I'm always ashamed (thankfully) the few times that I let my arguments and ideas slip into the realm of personal attack, but I don't really feel bad about responding to those who make a habit of it.

Mal, that wasn't directed at you so much as the extreme left AND right commenters I've noticed lately. The articles have been mostly up to par. But without naming names, I could get the "You're nothing but a rabid liberal" and "You can't tell a conservative anything" commentary on FoxNews and MSNBC--and I'd rather cut myself than watch that tripe. I just think we need to use some common sense.

[Malcontent]

Robbie: Do you suppose it is any coincidence that these same countries that Bush has supposedly "alienated" were also discovered to have been bought off by billions of dollars' worth of Saddam's oil-for-food bribes?

[Jamie]

Robbie--

I think it's a little America-centric to relate elections all around the world to President Bush. Though the Canadian results by urban/rural breakdown do seem to mirror our last election, there was also a corruption scandal to consider, and the liberals in Canada were really due to lose power for a while, historically speaking. And brand me "liberal" for saying this if you like, but I'm sure that the legalization of same-sex marriage took its toll on the liberal party as well.

I agree that there does seem to be a worldwide trend going on, and I can't help but wonder if the common denominator is a religion-based sense of morality, not "Bush" per se.

[anthony]

But I don't think the Canadian election had anything to do with the War on Terror, the Iraq war or foreign policy in general. The Conservatives had to promise to stay out of Iraq - they wouldn't have had a chance if they had put the idea out there of supporting that war.

I think that most mational elections are decided for local reasons - Spain being the exception because of the devastating attack just days before the vote. In Canada the corruption scandal of the Liberals rated much higher than the war on terror as a voter concern.

I don't know enough about politics in Oz to comment on Howard but I follow Britain pretty closely and I would say that wing-nut leaders of the Tories taking the party down a disastrous path for 10 years has done a lot more for Blair than his going into Iraq. Thatcher always said she was blessed by the opponents she was given - looney labour leadership and gen Galtieri in Argentina. I think Blair has - until this recent election of Cameron - been enjoying the same advantage.

For the others - Chirac and the german dude - they were also in a long time and that as much as anything leads to changes in gov't.

[Chad]

Jamie - I don't think what Robbie pointed out is "America-centric". He wasn't saying that by voting for their new, more conservative governments that these countries are necessarily validating Bush and the job he's doing with the WOT.

It's just an interesting trend that countries who the left claimed Bush alientated are now choosing leadership that's more on par with what he's trying to do.

[Queer Conservative]

I liked Mark Steyn's take on the Canadian elections. From talking to friends in Windsor and Toronto (who voted New Democrat) he's spot on.

Well, no. In a very Canadian kind of revolution, we rose up yesterday and threw the bums out but gave them a soft, fluffy landing, nevertheless installing in office a minority government that somehow managed to get itself elected despite having the word "Conservative" in its name.

For Tories, it was a good night, if not a great night. But, given that the party was reduced to two seats in the 1993 debacle, after 12 years in the wilderness most Canadian conservatives will take a strong minority government as a spectacular landslide. We'd be dipping our voting fingers in maple syrup and triumphantly waving them at the UN observers if they hadn't all fallen asleep 20 minutes into the thrilling election-night coverage.

[Jamie]

Chad-

I think the viewpoint Robbie spoke from really is America-centric. And I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with it either. I'm American, and I tend to think of things from an American perspective. But that doesn't mean that I necessarily equate a newly elected conservative government elsewhere with "Bush friendly." I know of many republicans here who are no longer "Bush friendly." Hell, my Dad, a lifelong Republican (big R) voted for Bush twice, and now he wants him impeached because he isn't actively pursuing Osama.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are other, more pressing issues going on around the world, and to try and directly relate these elections to Bush himself is a bit of a stretch.

[Robbie]

Mal - Oh, I'm sure it's a total coincidence. Just ask George Galloway.

Jaime - I'm not saying these countries elected more conservative governments because of Bush. I'm just saying, it's kind of an interesting little thing, and it must be infuriating to the far left to watch their erstwhile anti-Bush allies being shoved out of office. The far left is utterly powerless domestically, and now the foreign leaders they loved are disappearing one by one. It has to be so frustrating for them to be so marginalized on a global level.

I'm not talking about how Canadians or Germans or whomever views their candidates. I'm talking about how people in our own country are viewing the world. Which yes, is Amero-centric, but not in the way you took it. I'm just pondering what must be the American leftist's mindset while watching all of this.

And, in every conservative victory in a foreign nation, the press has always noted that it means better ties with Washington. Perhaps it won't work out that way, but that's the conventional wisdom out there at the moment.

For the record - I think the foreign trend towards conservatism (which is not the same brand as American conservatism) that is happening in a lot of countries is a result of domestic politics - specifically how socialistic welfare systems are really a bit of a mess, and reform is needed in order to avoid economic hardship and collapse in the future.

[Chad]

Jamie, I must've read Robbie's comment wrong 'cause I don't see anywhere where he directly links elections around the world to Bush himself. All he did is point out that people in countries orignally seen as "anti-Bush" seem to be voting in more "Bush-friendly" governments.

Semantics I guess. I would imagine it's all Rove's doing anyway.

[anapestic]

I don't claim to be a political expert, but this is the first I've heard of Republicans in Canada. I looked at the original source of the Venn diagram, and it doesn't say anything about Canada; it says that Republicans are not hotties, and it is not exactly news that Joe feels that way.

Your sentence about the Canadian elections can only have been intended as provocation, and it is hardly surprising that people have responded. But it allows you to poke fun at those crazy liberals, so I suppose you've accomplished what you set out to do.

[Robbie]

I think the point of Mal's post was essentially - liberals have many a reason for being cranky and bitter. Joe's post was indeed cranky and informed by bitterness.

So, there ya go.

[Jamie]

Robbie--

I realize that you're not saying they voted in those governments because of Bush. I'd have to be pretty stupid not to. What I'm saying is that any comparison/metaphor/relation between foreign elections that tries to cast a positive light on the foreign perception of Bush is invalid. Why? Because that's what I'm told by my friends across the pond. They all pretty much HATE him, no matter which way they vote.

And, in every conservative victory in a foreign nation, the press has always noted that it means better ties with Washington. Perhaps it won't work out that way, but that's the conventional wisdom out there at the moment.

It may be the CW, but I still don't buy it. I quit listening to "the press" long ago. Talking with people who voted in the German election gave me the distinct impression that they wanted someone to fix and unify their country. I did not hear one good thing about Bush in those conversations. Perhaps these governments may be more "America" friendly, but Bush really burned a lot of people's asses by his decisions over the past 5 years--not waiting for Germany and France to get into the Iraq situation pissed a lot of them off because they're cut off from the market advantages of those who did participate, and Kyoto sticks in a lot of foreign craw. They certainly don't want their governments cuddling up to Bush. They just don't like him. But, like you and I, they don't vote on just one issue.

And THAT's why I don't think "Bush-friendly" is an accurate term at all. "Conservative-friendly," sure, but "Bush-friendly" ignores some realities.

think the foreign trend towards conservatism (which is not the same brand as American conservatism) that is happening in a lot of countries is a result of domestic politics - specifically how socialistic welfare systems are really a bit of a mess, and reform is needed in order to avoid economic hardship and collapse in the future.

I think you're right on the money here.

[Robbie]

Jaime - you're reading too much into my comments. I'm not saying any foreign person's perception of Bush is changing. As far as I know, they hate him as much as ever.

I'm just saying the string of political defeats for Bush opponents is interesting. That's really all I mean. It's just one of those things. I'm not saying it's caused by Bush, or that anyone's sentiments towards Bush have changed, or anything else along those lines. I was really just saying something along the lines of, "Oh look, a cloud shaped like a penis. Interesting."

The only perception towards Bush that I believe is changed by these elections is the American Left's. They're losing their foreign allies. I think they must be very cranky to see government after government they liked because of shared opposition to Bush voted out of power.

I think many new conservative foreign governments will be more friendly towards the Bush administration insofar as they're not going to be out there constantly bashing the president as a bit of demogogic domestic theater the way liberal leaders have done in the past. They probably won't be bosom buddies, because their constituents won't allow it, but they'll certainly be more amenable to hearing each other out, with a higher chance of productive dialogue being exchanged.

I mean, how much productive communication do you think was going on between the Bush administration and Gerard Schroeder when the Chancellor was out there ripping on Bush 24/7 in order to whip up domestic election support? We'll probably not see that behavior from the new Chancellor, which is generally a good thing. No, it doesn't mean the German government is going to leap into Iraq and suddenly be all gung ho to go along with Bush, but it's progress nonetheless.

[Malcontent]

Hell, my Dad, a lifelong Republican (big R) voted for Bush twice, and now he wants him impeached because he isn't actively pursuing Osama.

Jamie, I love ya', but you can't tell me you honestly believe this. If Bush weren't interested in taking out the top leadership of al-Qaeda, then why did we just bomb a bunch of them in Pakistan? Besides, most terrorism experts say that Osama has exactly zero to do with the day-to-day operations of al-Qaeda anyway and is not really "calling shots" anymore in the terrorist world.

[Malcontent]

Anapestic: Did I say "Republicans"? No, I was talking about their ideas.

I'm noticing a pattern where commenters from the left refuse to deal with the substance of my critiques and instead busy themselves setting up and kocking down strawmen.

No one has effectively supported how calling one's political opponents "ugly" furthers any particular social or political good, aside from Joe's miscreantism. And after 114 comments, no one has convincingly explained why "9/11 Victims for Osama" is any less viable a comparison regarding gay Democrats than "Jews for Hitler" is to gay Republicans. All we get is invective, whining about hurt feelings and irrelevant commentary on my admittedly amateurish Photoshop capbilities.

Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the truth of that "Osama" post that helped prompt Joe's sophomoric excuse for political commentary.

[Josh]

But Mal, you forget, he "let Osama get away" when he couldn't mobilize enough troops to occupy all of eastern Afghanistan. Nevermind that the Brits, Russians, even the Taliban couldn't even occupy eastern Afghanistan...

But I think it's funny. On my own blog, I've been accused of being an ugly troll, or chubby, or "freakish" because of my moderate political conservatism, and far worse. Hell, I was dumped for being too conservative in the summer of 2004.

It's just not enough to ask some people to think. They don't frankly. And I've given up trying to justify myself to such people. It's such a fundamentally unthinking statement to make, I just sort of taught myself to ignore it.

I dunno, maybe developing a filter is the best approach.

[Jamie]

Robbie--

I'm just saying the string of political defeats for Bush opponents is interesting. That's really all I mean. It's just one of those things.

I realize that, but I still wouldn't call it "Bush-Friendly" is all. Just poor word-choice in my opinion.

Oh look, a cloud shaped like a penis. Interesting."

It's always a penis with you, isn't it? ;)

The only perception towards Bush that I believe is changed by these elections is the American Left's. They're losing their foreign allies. I think they must be very cranky to see government after government they liked because of shared opposition to Bush voted out of power.

Yep, most likely so. But maybe it'll serve to jar those on the far left back into reality.

Mal--

Dad saw a clip on some show where Bush said something like, "I don't really think about him anymore," referring to Osama, and from that point on my father has wanted Bush o-u-t OUT!

Now, as to what I believe, that's a horse of a different color. Of course I think we're trying to get him. For one thing, Bush would be a complete idiot if he didn't salivate at the prospect of having the picture of Osama over the headline "CAUGHT" or, even better, "PAYBACK" (I think we'd all like that title, don't you?)

I do think we have some people with a political agenda at certain points within the chain that want to drag it out as long as they can.

[Malcontent]

I think catching Osama would be an inherently good thing, if only so that he could be tried and executed. But in terms of the prosecution of the War on Terror, I think it would be a wash, at best. Whatever spine-stiffening it would engender in people like John Kerry who have tried to paint the War on Terror as an abysmal failure because Osama has reamined at large would be temporary at best. While it might mean a temporary to the radicalists' morale, I think that also wouldn't last long.

Moer effective and terrible leaders have already taken Osama's place, which is why there's a greater focus on al-Zarqawi. (Here's to hoping that he rolls over wrong in the night ...)

[o]

"How is it Bush, Blair, and Howard survive..."
Anthony is spot on as far as the UK goes: the British government is not 'conservative', has more in common with the American left than the right and Blair's support for Bush is unpopular. Blair's prolonged power is almost entirely due to a lack of decent opposition and a specifically English desire for self-reinvention - Blair's election promise of a 'New Britain' - arguably based on a liberal embarrasment with the old empire.

[Robbie]

Oh, no, I never meant to imply Labour is conservative. It's not. (I lived in Britain for a few years, and I'm very familiar with their parties and domestic politics). I meant Blair as Bush ally. Bush's main allies, Blair and Howard, remain in place while two of his biggest opponents, Schroeder and Martin, bit the dust.

Again, it doesn't mean anything. I just find it amusing because it no doubt pisses off the Left like nothing else.

[Craig Ranapia]

Jamie & Anthony:

Look, I'm sure there's an element of crude, mindless anti-Americanism in both Canada and Australia (there certainly is in New Zealand) but you can over-play it.

Has anyone here actually seen the anti-Martin attack ads the Liberals were running? Truly bizarre - you'd think he and Dubya has a time-share arrangement on Brokeback Mountain with Jake & Heath. Ditto for the ALP. Mark Latham forgot George Bush wasn't standing for Prime Minister of Australia; John Howard was and he effectively painted the opposition as soft on domestic security, flaky on health and education and not to be trusted with the economy.

[North Dallas Thirty]

I'm kinda let down by the fact that in just one week the comments here have gone from intelligent discussion to back-and-forth mudslinging.

And we wonder why we can't accomplish any mutual goals.

Well, I can give you one answer, Jamie.....it wouldn't hurt when you hear stuff like "All gay conservatives are ugly" to point out that you know better.

[North Dallas Thirty]

I think catching Osama would be an inherently good thing, if only so that he could be tried and executed. But in terms of the prosecution of the War on Terror, I think it would be a wash, at best. Whatever spine-stiffening it would engender in people like John Kerry who have tried to paint the War on Terror as an abysmal failure because Osama has reamined at large would be temporary at best. While it might mean a temporary to the radicalists' morale, I think that also wouldn't last long.

I agree. Assuming that the people who are screaming the loudest would actually be satisfied if we DID catch Osama is foolish at best. This is why the same Democrats who supposedly want to devote more resources to catch Osama also follow Cindy Sheehan, who completely opposes the use of the US military in Afghanistan.

Osama bin Laden is al-Qaeda's weakness. As long as it's a personality cult, as long as it's devoted to him, they are vulnerable -- because they won't move until he does, and their attempts to contact him expose them.

[o]

Not really Republican, but certainly Thatcherite, which is close enough. Conservative, handsome and openly gay: Ivan Massow
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view.php?ArtID=944
But sadly not Lord Mayor of London. Instead we got (anti-semite) 'Red' Ken Livingstone.

[Queer Conservative]

I would totally vote for Ivan. Based on his positions of course.

[Jamie]

Well, I can give you one answer, Jamie.....it wouldn't hurt when you hear stuff like "All gay conservatives are ugly" to point out that you know better.

NDT--

I'm sorry, baby, you know I love you. ;) I just wouldn't want people to think I was mooning over you. Besides, I try my best not to respond to the comments that are explicitly stupid. They just keep coming back for more.

BTW, I think part of the reason we haven't caught Osama yet is because if/when we did, he'd most probably get killed on the spot. Then he would no longer be this frail old man hiding in a cave, he'd be a martyr for his "cause." We're probably better off letting him die on his own out of the limelight.

[anapestic]

"I'm noticing a pattern where commenters from the left refuse to deal with the substance of my critiques and instead busy themselves setting up and kocking down strawmen."

You set up Joe's graphic as a response to the Canadian elections, but I'm the one "setting up and k[n]ocking down" a straw man? Kettle on line 2, indeed. Joe's graphic specifically mentioned Republicans, and I was pointing out that it was in no way related to the Canadian elections. If you want to poke fun at Joe's graphic and poke fun at the liberals in Canada, have at it, but don't pretend that the two are related.

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